Italy has a lot of people of African heritage now. They do not have an assimilationist or multicultural (like we have in Australia) policy. People who are not caucasian are excluded from representing Italy in MOST but not all - public life. France has an assimilationist policy and people are French regardless of race.

FYI in the Italian squad, Camoronessi no7 and nesta no6, have argentinian heritage

No, Nesta is Roman. Camoranesi is Argentinian, but of Italian extraction.

No wonder politicians are so afraid to address ‘taboo’ subjects such as ethnic ratios and immigration in Australia.

How many respondants here have straight away reacted with a “What are you implying?” without considering what Bolt is trying to illustrate.

What chance is there ever for a sensible debate about the world’s ever increasing migration of African nationals, when people are so quick to throw out a “red card” and accuse others of being racist the minute even the simplest of observations is made.

BTW- There are millions of Australians who would love the chance to not only openly debate the three R’s refugees, race & religion- but who would also like to see and hear what our current politicians stance is on each one.

How many more non integrating cultures and ethnic enclaves need to be established in our major cities before someone (apart from Pauline Hanson) has the guts to stand up and say this is Australia not _ _ _ _ (insert country here).

From Mr Bolt’s notes…
“May I please point out to hyperventilating commenters below that to notice is not to condemn - or applaud.”
As an individual, I found the comparisons interesting...nothing more.

“Camoranesi is Argentinian, but of Italian extraction”. I wonder if there is any difference if he was Argentinian of african extraction??

Jarrod, in Italy as long as you are and Italian citizen you have access to any public position there is no restriction. Talking of the National football team, Gentile, World Champion in 1982, was half Libyan, and Ferrari who has played in the under 21 team is part African. In the track and field sector Italy has had quite a few athletes born overseas the most famous being Fiona May who was a British citizen of Caribbean origin.

I think the photos show that 39 years ago, the French wore a grey outfit, with white shorts.

Now it is all blue!

The worrying point about Andrew’s “innocent observation” is the following phrase:

… are having differing success in keeping their traditional cultural identity

It is taken as given by Andrew that the presence of black players in the French team = the erosion of traditional cultural identity.

The key word here is “success”. This is not a simple observation by Andrew - it is a statement loaded with value judgements.

There are players from a wide range of backgrounds in the Socceroos - would we infer from this situation that Australia has been unsuccessful in maintaining its traditional cultural identity? If so, why?

GM

I wrote most not all.

According to a few articles I have read it was the mid-eighties before any club would risk hiring a player of African descent. This is one of those articles
Racism in the Italian game

Unfortunately so!!

I think that the photo’s are a good reflection of a nation (France) who is open to globalisation, and who treats it citizens regardless of colour as French.

It’s a bit disappointing to see that Italy has not followed this trend. It appears that Italy may still be stuck with an out-dated version of nationalism - exclusion, regardless them having a lot of African immigrants.

Italy when it decolonized just packed up and left, leaving the former colony in poverty, destruction and distress.  France however took millions with her.

France may be a country of Lefties but at least it attempts to treat all its citizens as one people.

And so it goes.

http://www.dotsub.com/films/ more...age_setting=en_

France may be a country of Lefties but at least it attempts to treat all its citizens as one people.

Yes perhaps they do.

And it seems that this has resulted in one of the worst cultural messes in all of Europe.

France has many cultural ghettos with seemingly insurmountable problems.

France is not a happy place.

Gert

It comes back to same old “Damned if you do and damned if you don’t,” can anyone really win? No-one is happy with whatever is instituted. Multiculturalism creates difference, assimilation causes the loss of cultural identity, what else is there?

Judging from these comments, the media and social literature it sadly appears that unless society is homogeneous there is always going to be problems.

so wheres the class in swimming, the only black and hes a very fair shade that wo a swimming olympic medal is anthony nesty of surinin. Dont you think the reason there are a lot of black kids playing basketball is because its a game like soccer that can be played naywhere and you dont have to belong to some elite club to do it. And by the way being 7 foot helps

Guess what: there is some whites in the French team, what a surprise

Not true -

When the French decolonized they provided citizenship for millions of Africans.  This was partially due in an effort to repel nationalist movements by granting the inhabitants of the Black colonies full status as French citizens. They also placed deputies and senators from each territory to sit in the French National Assembly.

Well, Italy did have a successful overseas empire for awhile (approx 1400yrs). However it was a long time ago and well before the advent of the Football World Cup. I’m sure if the Roman Empire had kept going instead of falling apart and being invaded by all those rude barbarians then the ethnic backgrounds of the current Italian team would be rather more diverse than it is now.

Rosemary, thank you for reminding us that the Roman Empire had a number of Emperors who weren’t born in Rome of Roman stock. . . .Its a lesson to the racists who would have us close our borders !

Halberstram I’m all for a more considered approach to immigration, having open borders is not a clever way to run a country, nor is totally closed borders either. Somewhere in between, provided that the host country and its society and people isn’t going to suffer by it.

As for Rome - yes there were a number of Emperors born outside of Rome (Spanish born Trajan being a notable example) however Rome, despite absorbing various religions and ethnic groups, did strongly enforce its own laws and culture. The sort of ethnic troubles that France and other European countries are experiencing lately would not have been tolerated by Imperial Rome, and those who were inciting trouble would have been seriously leant on by the local Legionary lads.

“The sort of ethnic troubles that France and other European countries are experiencing lately would not have been tolerated by Imperial Rome,”

Yes, brutal, barbaric dispatching of dissidents, like Christians was common place, throw them to the lions…

Meh, Imperial Rome has nothing on modern France in the justice stakes.

Rosemary, you may want to refresh yourself as far as modern history is concerned.

The football world cup began in 1930.

The Italian Empire (as distinct from the Roman Empire) was at its peak in the early 1940s.

During this time Italy controlled territory in Africa (modern day Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Libya) as well as in China, Albania, Greece and Yugoslavia.

The Italian Empire effectively fell in 1943, and the Italians left Somalia in 1960.

Hardly something ‘a long time ago’ and certainly NOT before the advent of the Football World Cup.

Andrew, my interest is Ancient History - modern Italian history isn’t my strong point. So I stand corrected on that.

RobJ - yet it is said that during the height of the Roman Empire a citizen could walk/ride from one end of the Roman empire to the other and be perfectly safe doing so.

Our modern considerations of justice may not have applied to Ancient Rome, but they could certainly teach us a thing or two about the keeping of the peace, and general security.

I was boggled by this statement:

Different European countries are having differing success in keeping their traditional cultural identity.

Rudi you made a good reply, as merit should be the only concern. 

However it appears as though Andrew is equating cultural identity with race. 

If that is the case it, then I am disappointed for it implies racist sentiment.  Unless there is some deeper criticism I am missing over European multi-culturalist policy.

May I please point out to hyperventilating commenters below that to notice is not to condemn - or applaud.

Andrew, you first ‘observed’ at your opening statement:

Different European countries are having differing success in keeping their traditional cultural identity.

Is this an observation from the photographs?  Or indication of your objections to multiculturalism?  If the latter what are your objections?

If, as you say, different European countries are having differing success (?) in keeping their traditional cultural identity, are you not equating cultural identity with race?

It appears as though you are.  Therefore, careful it is not read as racist.

Italy has a problem with racist and anti-semetic soccer fans - you can read about it hereand see some disturbing photos of some fans in Italy.

The make up of the national teams may reflect the culture of the nation.

That’s because the French have an assimilationist policy. In France you you are French; it doesn’t work all the time though, take the Arab riots.
That was very unusual for France.

“as many do ... “

How many would that be, Chris M? Do you have any idea? Or is that comment just a racist generalisation from a racist pig?

the latter

Chris, you forgot to mention break-dancing and wearing caps backwards.

Enough to torch hundreds of cars a night for several night running of course.

And what do YOU have against pigs? They are fine beasts; not unlike whales - intelligent, clean and tasty.

Good comment Chris -I can already hear Walter foaming at the mouth.

Maybe we could offer him a slice of whale??

You got all that from a photo, impressive, John B, please let me in on your secret. Do you read palms also or do you just do photos?

The only differences I spotted were the Italian team in white, French team in blue and the 1959 team in zip up jackets.

Yes, it is called soccer. You get an extra 100 points

I fully agree. Why not play the best team you can. If the colour of a player skin bothers you then the problem is yours.

With reminds me of an old song I really ejoyed.

From Depech Mode

(Thank God they don’t dress like this any more )

No, Andrew.  Your choice of the word ’success’ implys that Italy is doing the right thing, whilst France is failing to maintain it’s purity.

Since when does skin colour equal traditional cultural identity.

You have now proven what a lot of us have been saying for a long time - you are racially biased.

You can’t look at three photos of soccer teams and infer anything about the changing face of Europe.

All you can see is the changing face of 2 European soccer times.

Even “changing” is debatable because what we are seeing is a snapshot (both literally and figuratively) of the teams that reflects nothing more than their makeup at that point in time.

We know nothing about the origin of each player: locally born, recent immigrant or bought for the occasion.

We (well, me ) know nothing about the historical successes of the teams, or the impact that team makeup, management and coaching have on that success.

I am NOT saying Andrew is racist.

No, Andrew, they do not infer incorrectly or with hostile intent.

This is a disgusting and blatant dig about race, colour and culture - for what other purpose would you raise it. As an earlier respondent said, Germany had a perfectly homogenous sporting team in 1936. Your comments seem to support that position — i.e. the success of keeping culture — when you put a fifty year old picture against a current one. Fifty years ago most French would have thought the African’s as less then human, something to enslave, not liberate. Now, they can enjoy them for what they are — equal human beings.

As for cultural protection — shove it. Culture is not a rigid thing but an ever evolving process that should include new people and new thoughts. By all means, allow it to be remembered by the history books, but stop whining about how bad it is to have all these “foreigners” in your country.

I’m not hyperventilating, but this post has me at sort of a loss too, RD.  I don’t know much about European sports, but some American sports have more blacks than whites as well.  I’ve often thought of sports in free countries like America as a good example of colour-blind meritocracy.

It may certainly be valid to discuss “Europe’s changing face,” but the racial composition of sporting teams doesn’t strike me as the best lead-in to such a discussion.

Maybe you need to forward this to the powers that be in South African cricket. 

Dean - you’re a smart cookie. What do you infer from the make up of US professional sports teams? Other than blacks are disproportionately represented, purely because they are picked on merit?

And a supplementary question, what do you honestly think Andrew was trying to imply with this post? Personally , I think he goofed, by not realising that African players are disproportionately represented in the French soccer team, because on average they are better players. He would have been better served showing pictures of the French at work , or a random crowd shot. But of course , this would have had less impact, because of the lower proportion of black faces. It would have been more accurate however.

The other point here is that football, basketball and gridiron players can earn huge sums of money if they’re good enough,and so sport has always been a way for minority groups like blacks to get themselves out of the poverty cycle that they’re families may be in.
That’s the great thing about Sport, it’s talent that counts not someones skin colour or social background.

Latin American players now make up about 25% of major league baseball players. No doubt they are talented but one reason potential major leaguers from Latin America are signed ahead of potential major leaguers from within the US is that they will sign for less than their American counterparts. They don’t have agents touting their outstanding college record and don’t come through the formal draft process. US teams send scouts through a lot of poor countries looking for a bargain.

I know that has nothing to do with Europe but I prefer talking about sport!

Seadrift, many of those Latino baseball players are Puerto Rican - and thus citizens of the USA.

Charles - I think he’s just trying to be ‘controverisal’.

Catherine Deveney is mounting a challenge for the title of ‘Australia’s most controversial columnist’.

But I agree with you, I dislike these deliberately ambiguous posts.

Hi Dickens

Regarding your posting.

Would you support a proposal by the Prime Minister to settle 25 million impoverished Chinese peasants in Australia, on humanitarian grounds?

The irony is Mark, you’re trying to use the “PC fascists” furphy to silence our dissenting views here.

JK,
It’s quite amusing and certainly plays to scriptthat when a politically conservative commentator posts a subject that invites a comment from readers, those of the political left immediately jump on the “race” aspect of the argument and by implication point the old racist tag on anyone who dares to comment in any way other than from a PC point of view. Read the posts on this page, it becomes self evident, people like you cannot discuss a topic of race without casting the aspersions of racist on anyone who doesn’t see it from your point of view.

“The PC fascists”, eh?

There are fascists and there are fascists, Mark.

If having an expectation that people will be given a fair go then I guess there’s a lot of “PC fascists” about.

Of course, no one with anything positive to say about someone else has ever complained about having their style cramped by “political correctness”. Only the nasty seem bothered by it.

As Andrew has pointed out, our opinions say more about our character than they do about the world around us.

… not careful the PC fascists ...

(Shudder)

I will have your scalp, for crimes against good debate and the English language in general.

Using the term ‘politically correct’ on your opponents (whether they be left or right) is lazy and proves that you don’t really know why you’re so upset.

Many who have taken umbrage to this thread have expressed their views clearly and logically.  See - there’s no need to use debate-killing terms if you use your brain.

rossco - Can’t agree I’m afraid., although I’m happy to provide some amusement.

I defy anyone to make a comment on a post which is based on race, without in some way referring to race. If you look at the names of posters carefully in this thread, there are more than a few, not of the ‘left’.

This post looked like a duck, sounded like a duck and got treated like a duck.

I’d be interested to hear how you interpret a post that compares black players’ numbers to white players, and then invites us to mack a comment on nations’ success at preserving their ciltural identities.

The two major flaws here are : -equating cultural identity with race ;
and pretending that the relative compositions of soccer teams mirrors the relative racial composition of the nations. Black players are over-represented, on merit.

So sorry rossco, I can’t agree that our responses are mindlessly reflexive.

JK,
I appreciate your point but you largely missed mine, and that is that a discussion about race is indeed very difficult to have because some people, and I must say, mostly from the political left, find it difficult to have such a discussion without labelling those of a contrary view a racist. For example, I can with an overwhelming amount of evidence say that people of black African heritage are pretty hopeless when it comes to competing in swimming at the highest level, the same can also (with a couple of exceptions) be said about black Africans and tennis. Now the choice is yours, you can accept this statement as evident fact or you can say that it is racist because it shows black people to be inferior to white.
To put the other side, I can also say, with much evidence that black Africans are decidedly superior to whites when it comes to competing in sprinting events in athletics, if so, am I being racist against whites? So what is it to be, a sensible objective discussion which involves race, or the easy way and a quick PC racist accusation?

Rossco - I take your point that it is difficult for some to discuss race without invoking rascism. Maybe I’m kidding myself, but I have never considered myself as being in that category. I agree that there are objective differences between races, and it is valid to be able to point this out. I dislike any debate being curtailed with either PC or anti-PC muzzles. And if you ever catch me doing that here, please feel free to kick my blog arse.

But I can not escape the conclusion, that Andrew has juxtaposed these photos to make a comparison on the racial composition of Italy and France. Again, I know I’m labouring the point, but I think he is being misleading by choosing a misrepresentative sample ie a soccer team, and also wrong in linking the protection of traditional cultural identity to a team with fewer black players.

Now you may argue I’ve overblown this , but I’ll have to cop that, because I honestly believe I made the correct inference here.

My opinion is that sporting teams should be selected on merit, and that the French are to be applauded for considering their residents to be French enough to represent them , regardless of skin colour.

I’ll leave any last words on this one to you, as I feel I’ve put my point of view as well as I’m capable of.
Till we next clash heads, and believe me these debates against worthy foes such as yourself, are good ones, cheers.

Andrew,
Fancy showing a photo of a soccer team with black and white men and ask for people to make a judgement and comment. Walter, bless his narrow little mind, goes immediately for Keating’s little book of debate stoppers, he hasn’t used the “R” word yet, but he’s itching to do so. Better at this stage to bring in to question your “lack of judgement”.
I’m afraid to say Wally, the only lack of judgement comes from you. Your lack of judgement is seeing a photo that requires a little intellectual input before putting finger to keyboard. So far all Andrew has done is throw out a fishing line with a some photos a bait and mostly he has caught a school of politically correct barracudas just like Walter.

An apology or and admittance of a mistake from Andrew Bolt is something that you or I will never see in our life time Walter.

Rick Flair, I’ve been reading here less than a year and I’ve seen a few threads where Andrew has come out and admitted he was wrong.  One last year was on Kevin Rudd and the death of an SAS soldier in Afghanistan, from memory.  Andrew got it wrong, and publicly apologised - and it wasn’t a Lachlan Harris apology either.  There have been other instances as well, but I was impressed by that one particularly.

rossco - that fishing line logic leads to the types of mindless posts Richard makes daily. Bait to catch the “righties”. Or “lefties ‘. Or whatever.  A complete and utter waste of everyone’s time.

Aw, they’ll clean up OK with a nice soapy wash.

Oh, they also say a lot about the meritorious Zinédine Zidane, who paved the way for French’s soccer acceptance, nay embrace, for quality players irrespective of skin, after he helped them win the 1998 World Cup. Since then the French have had their most successful years internationally.

That’s pretty close to the extent of what I know about French soccer though.